Having seen about half of the lecture at the time I'm writing this, it seems to me that Connes is not talking about music theory at all,What?
https://www.reddit.com/r/learnmath/comments/8pjj0v/can_someone_please_explain_like_im_5_what_this/
Someone watches "half the lecture" and then says what?
I don't think any of these quotes are verbatim or even real for that matter.So this is what I call "willful ignorance" in action! Hilarious.
This is total B.S. - I listened to the lecture at HALF SPEED and transcribed the lecture quotes verbatim - and I used to work for the deaf community transcribing phone calls and I was also a legal secretary transcribing a law professor.
So this person gives no evidence that that quotes are not verbatim - they are indeed.
That FALSE accusation - with no evidence is by someone who admits they only listened to HALF the lecture! Hilarious. And this is supposed to be "engagement" with the "evidence?"
If you read my research online - you can find that I first cite Connes over ten years ago - and it's an entirely different source, based on music.
Let's see if I can find it.
Secret of the Snake: Kepler and the Nine - Ancient Mysteries ...
https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com › ... › Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History
Yep - here we go. So that was the FIRST book I read by Connes - on music theory....
The book Triangle of Thoughts (2000) by top French quantum chaos mathematicians Alain Connes, Andrew Lichnerowicz and Marcel Paul Schutzenberger (M.P.S.) ends with a promotion of music theory as the secret key to solving humanity’s problems. The argument by Alain Connes is that music transmitted aurally is currently in the same
stage as when people read out loud—as they did until the 12th Century A.D. Connes states that if people could, as conductor Solti did, read music
scores and hear multiple texts in their head "
Alain Connes continues “
that is inscribed in a
time that would no longer be sequential, because a score is a multitude of
chords, a tangle projected onto physical time of course, but that
manifestly evolves in an higher dimensional space, giving rise to a
variability much more pertinent to the description of individual
time."
And it could be formalized by music.
...I think we might succeed in this way to educate the human mind to deal
with polyphonic situations in which several voices coexist, in which
several states coexist, whereas our ordinary logical allows room for only
one. Finally, we come back to the problem of adaptation, which has to be
resolved in order for us to understand quantum correlation and
interrelation which we discussed earlier, and which are fundamentally
schizoid in nature. It is clear that logic will evolve in parallel with
the development of quantum computers, just as it evolved with computer
science. That will no doubt enable us to cross new borders and to better
integrate the mathematical formalism of the quantum world into our
metaphysical system.”
So just as I did with the youtube lecture online - I transcribed it.
Now let's look at a third source of Connes on music theory....
Just type the quote into google and presto:
arXiv:math/0404128v1 [math.NT] 6 Apr 2004
by A Connes - 2004 - Cited by 14 - Related articles
discrete scaling manifests itself in acoustic systems, as is well known in western classical music, where the two scalings correspond, respectively, to passing to the octave (frequency ratio of 2) and transposition (the perfect fifth is the frequency ratio 3/2), with the approximate value log(3)/ log(2) ∼ 19/12 responsible for.
1 hour ago, Phoenix3 said:
I agree exactlyI would have gone further and mentioned it, but I didn’t want anyone to start taking offense. No-one’s a perfect scholar here, I just want to be spoken to like a normal person, not like a postgraduate advanced physics expert or whatever.
It’s also worth mentioning that I tried finding clarification on the references elsewhere, like here (https://www.reddit.com/r/learnmath/comments/8pjj0v/can_someone_please_explain_like_im_5_what_this/e0cqdqo/), because Void just can’t seem to explain his theories without using advanced physics jargon, and one reply said that the quotes referred to basically don’t exist.
Again, I have to emphasise that it’s well in void’s right to speak however he wants, and if he wants to talk to us in an incredibly confusing and complicted language, that’s ok. But in return, I don’t see why I can’t ask questions to clarify what he is talking about.
I agree completely that quantum physics language is totally unnecessary to explain ancient concepts of pythagorean music theory or anatomy or philosophy. But that’s just my opinion.
Not mentioning something - to be "polite"? Again the issue is evidence. So now you provide a link. I will look at it.
Why do you think you can't ask questions? Would you like me to count how many of your questions I have answered already? haha. But the whole time you have "politely" assumed that quantum mechanics is not necessary to understand - which is somewhat ironic considering computers would not exist without quantum mechanics. Since the early 20th century, the foundation of science has been quantum mechanics.
So if you think quantum mechanics is not necessary to understand Pythagorean music, anatomy or philosophy - that is all fine - but this is a DAoist website. Have you searched out a Daoist spiritual master yet so you can "understand" the subject at hand? haha.
Why not just cut to the chase instead of playing silly games. http://springforestqigong.com is a real spiritual master - you can call and get a "phone healing" - and then your experience will provide much greater understanding. You might even realize that only quantum mechanics can explain the phenomenon you experience (that is if you want to "reverse engineer" the experience back into Western science).
But thanks for sharing that you don't think quantum mechanics is worth learning - that explains why you incessantly were stilted in your dialog with me. haha.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind - if you don't want to study quantum mechanics - no problem.
Having seen about half of the lecture at the time I'm writing this, it seems to me that Connes is not talking about music theory at all,
That's your "evidence" - someone who watched HALF of the video and jumped to the wrong conclusion? haha.
If you read my research online - you can find that I first cite Connes over ten years ago - and it's an entirely different source, based on music.
Let's see if I can find it.
Secret of the Snake: Kepler and the Nine - Ancient Mysteries ...
https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com › ... › Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History
Yep - here we go. So that was the FIRST book I read by Connes - on music theory....
The book Triangle of Thoughts (2000) by top French quantum chaos mathematicians Alain Connes, Andrew Lichnerowicz and Marcel Paul Schutzenberger (M.P.S.) ends with a promotion of music theory as the secret key to solving humanity’s problems. The argument by Alain Connes is that music transmitted aurally is currently in the same
stage as when people read out loud—as they did until the 12th Century A.D. Connes states that if people could, as conductor Solti did, read music
scores and hear multiple texts in their head "
Alain Connes continues “
that is inscribed in a
time that would no longer be sequential, because a score is a multitude of
chords, a tangle projected onto physical time of course, but that
manifestly evolves in an higher dimensional space, giving rise to a
variability much more pertinent to the description of individual
time."
And it could be formalized by music.
...I think we might succeed in this way to educate the human mind to deal
with polyphonic situations in which several voices coexist, in which
several states coexist, whereas our ordinary logical allows room for only
one. Finally, we come back to the problem of adaptation, which has to be
resolved in order for us to understand quantum correlation and
interrelation which we discussed earlier, and which are fundamentally
schizoid in nature. It is clear that logic will evolve in parallel with
the development of quantum computers, just as it evolved with computer
science. That will no doubt enable us to cross new borders and to better
integrate the mathematical formalism of the quantum world into our
metaphysical system.”
So just as I did with the youtube lecture online - I transcribed it.
Now let's look at a third source of Connes on music theory....
Just type the quote into google and presto:
arXiv:math/0404128v1 [math.NT] 6 Apr 2004
by A Connes - 2004 - Cited by 14 - Related articles
discrete scaling manifests itself in acoustic systems, as is well known in western classical music, where the two scalings correspond, respectively, to passing to the octave (frequency ratio of 2) and transposition (the perfect fifth is the frequency ratio 3/2), with the approximate value log(3)/ log(2) ∼ 19/12 responsible for.
This isn't just metaphorical - it is precise math.
There is another quantum physicist who makes a similar point about music - actually I quote half a dozen quantum physicists on music and noncommutative phase. Professor Basil J. Hiley (with whom I've corresponded) - his collaborator David Bohm. Nobel PHysicist Brian Josephson (with whom I've corresponded), This quantum physicist in Mexico - ....Fred Alan Wolf - so that's half a dozen right there....including Alain Connes.
Let's go back to the "explanation" page that you link to....this quote below is imposing a Western bias onto an empirical truth. There is no need to "line up the octave and the Perfect Fifth" - unless you decide to define infinity as a geometric materialism and so therefore need to change the empirical truth of the noncommutative phase tuning. The Daoists DID NOT CHANGE THE EMPIRICAL TRUTH. THe Western Science revolution from Plato DID change the empirical truth by "tempering" the noncommutative phase or complementary opposites. Alain Connes acknowledges the truth.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=15&ved=0ahUKEwjpirag1ebbAhVp0YMKHfwNBfoQFgheMA4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nieuwarchief.nl%2Fserie5%2Fpdf%2Fnaw5-2010-11-4-250.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0cwUfPd8qk06beUiBxWc6r
pdf interview with Connes:
A fascinating aspect of music...is that it allows one to develop further one's perception of the passing of time. This needs to be understood much better. Why is time passing? Or better: Why do we have the impression that time is passes? Because we are immersed in the heat bath of the 3K radiation from the Big Bang?...time emerges from noncommutativity.
So I have the quote of him clearly stating that music is a universal scaling system that is because of noncommutative phase and it has a geometric dimension of zero, just as a quantum sphere. So it models the quantum sphere and this noncommutative phase music will never be out of tune. So it INCLUDES western tuning - but it is not quite the same as Western tuning. haha.
http://www.tony5m17h.net/musPhys.html
Here someone else transcribed Alain Connes "Triangle of Thoughts" book - and it makes the quote I posted.
Well I did a MUCH better job at transcribing the book - this person skipped sentences, etc.
I think we migh succeed in this way to educate the human mind to deal with polyphonic situations in which several voices coexist, in which several states coexist ...
the problem of adaptation ... has to be resolved in order for us to understand quantum correlation and interrelation which we discussed earlier, and which are fundamentally schizoid in nature.
It is clear that logic will evolve in parallel with the development of quantum computers, just as it evolved with computer science. ...".
Qigong Master Yan Xin says that his healing energy is a "virtual information field." - so even the Chinese qigong masters are turning to quantum physics to explain what they do. haha.
Qigong master Chunyi Lin even said to me - how I would be studying quantum physics to explain the experiences I've had. Qigong master Chunyi Lin read the book "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot - and qigong master Chunyi Lin said that book is an "accurate" description of what his reality is like.
So if you want to "Understand' - quantum physics is the foundation of science now. It is not a matter of what "spare time" affords - your ability to use a computer is due to quantum physics - and all of the information technologies.
But there is a deeper mystery to quantum physics - and the Copenhagen Interpretation tries to dismiss it as "woo woo." haha. Actually the nonwestern meditation, trance dance training corroborates the de Broglie model of quantum physics.
So you can say you don't have "time" to understand.
Again I urge you to seek out a qigong master to experience the truth. Then after that - how you experience time will dramatically change. You exist WITHIN time - and so TIME has YOU - not the other way around. haha.
And so whether you want to "explain" these nonwestern experiences or not - in terms of Western science - that is up to you. But that is the research I am offering and the questions you asked - APPEARED to be legitimate. But as you admit now - any mention of quantum physics was just something you IGNORED and "turned off." Your brain rejected it. haha.
What I am telling you is that nonwestern music theory EXPLAINS quantum physics! I am not the only one! Alain Connes does the same thing. And yet you make excuses - that you need advanced training in physics, etc. No - you just need to UNLEARN all the Western lies.
Like the quote i just gave you. The person gives a good explanation of music theory - but then SUDDENLY projects his WESTERN bias onto the empirical evidence! SUDDENLY he insists that the Octave and the Perfect Fifth NEED to "line up" - can time "line up" with geometry? Really? Is time some material physical thing that can be geometrically lined up? Why does time need to be a visual cycle? haha.
All human cultures use the 1-4-5 music intervals - and yet you insist this is too complicated a way to understand quantum physics. haha. Alain Connes gives a lecture - and you cite someone claiming I am not even quoting the lecture - and the person only watched HALF the lecture!! Hilarious.
Seriously - if you just WATCH the lecture - you will find my quotes to be precise.
The only quote that is not from the lecture - is from that 2004 source that I just cited. So it is Alain Connes giving the same information of music theory - corroborating his lecture.
Duality between shapes and spectra The music of ... - Alain Connes
www.alainconnes.org/docs/shapes.pdf
So notice that Connes - REVERSED the order of the division - originally he has it the "normal" way as it is found in music theory - with 2 to the 19th and 3 to the 12th (since the 2 is from 3/2 to the 12th and 2 to the 7th, so you add the 2 to the 12th plus the 2 to the 7th)... BUT NO - he does it the OPPOSITE way and says the reason it is noncommutative is because of the quotient - meaning the division is reversed. haha.
http://noncommutativegeometry.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-music-of-spheres.html
What about the relation with music? One finds quickly that music is best based on the scale (spectrum) which consists of all positive integer powers qn for the real number q=2 to the 12th∼3 to the 19th. Due to the exponential growth of this spectrum, it cannot correspond to a familiar shape but to an object of dimension less than any strictly positive number. As explained in the talk, there is a beautiful space which has the correct spectrum: the quantum sphere of Poddles, Dabrowski, Sitarz, Brain, Landi et all. ...
We experiment in the talk with this spectrum and show how well suited it is for playing music.
The new geometry which encodes such new spaces, is then introduced in its spectral form, it is noncommutative geometry, which is then confronted with physics.
Alain Connes
Alain Connes Excerpts of his youtube talk on music:
What is a parameter? The parameter is time...If you stay in the classical world, you can not have a good set up for variables. Because variables with a continuous range can not coexist with variables of discrete range. When you think more, you find out there is a perfect answer. And this answer is coming from quantum mechanics....The real variability in the world is exactly is where are you in the spectrum [frequency] of this variable or operator. And what is quite amazing is that in this work that I did at the very beginning of my mathematical studies, the amazing fact is that exactly time is emerging from the noncommutivity. You think that these variables do not commute, first of all it is that they don't commute so you can have the discrete variable that coexists with the continuous variable. What you find out after awhile is that the origin of time is probably quantum mechanical and its coming from the fact that thanks to noncommutativity ONLY that one can write the time evolution of a system, in temperature, in heat bath, the time evolution is really coming from the noncommutativity of the variables....You really are in a different world, then the world of geometry, which we all like because we all like to draw pictures and think in a geometric manner. So what I am going to explain is a very strange way to think about geometry, from this point of view, which is quite different from drawing on the blackboard...I will start by asking an extremely simple question, which of course has a geometrical origin. I don't think there can be a simpler question. Where are we?....The mathematical question, what we want, to say where we are and this has two parts: What is our universe? What is the geometric space in which we are? And in which point in this universe we are. We can not answer the 2nd question without answering the first question, of course....You have to be able to tell the geometric space in an invariant manner....These invariants are refinements of the idea of the diameter. The inverse of the diameter of the space is related to the first Eigenoperator, capturing the vibrations of the space; the way you can hear the music of shapes...which would be its scale in the musical sense; this shape will have a certain number of notes, these notes will be given by the frequency and form the basic scale, at which the geometric object is vibrating....The scale of a geometric shape is actually not enough.... However what emerges, if you know not only the various frequencies but also the chords, and the point will correspond to the chords. Then you know the complete thing....It's a rather delicate thing....There is a very strange mathematical fact...If you take manifolds of the same dimension, which are extremely different...the inverse space of the spinor doesn't distinguish between two manifolds. The Dirac Operator itself has a scale, so it's a spectrum [frequency]. And the only thing you need to know...is the relative position of the algebra...the Eigenfunctions of the Dirac Operator....a "universal scaling system," manifests itself in acoustic systems....There is something even simpler which is what happens with a single string. If we take the most elementary shape, which is the interval, what will happen when we make it vibrate, of course with the end points fixed, it will vibrate in a very extremely simple manner. Each of these will produce a sound...When you look at the eigenfunctions of the disk, at first you don't see a shape but when you look at very higher frequencies you see a parabola. If you want the dimension of the shape you are looking at, it is by the growth of these eigenvariables. When talking about a string it's a straight line. When looking at a two dimensional object you can tell that because the eigenspectrum is a parabola.... They are isospectral [frequency with the same area], even though they are geometrically different....when you take the square root of these numbers, they are the same [frequency] spectrum but they don't have the same chords. There are three types of notes which are different....What do I mean by possible chords? I mean now that you have eigenfunctions, coming from the drawing of the disk or square [triangle, etc.]. If you look at a point and you look at the eigenfunction, you can look at the value of the eigenfunction at this point.... The point [zero in space] makes a chord between two notes. When the value of the two eigenfunctions [2, 3, infinity] will be non-zero. ...The corresponding eigenfunctions only leave you one of the two pieces; so if there is is one in the piece, it is zero on the other piece and if it is non-zero in the piece it is zero there...You understand the finite invariant which is behind the scenes which is allowing you to recover the geometry from the spectrum....Our notion of point will emerge, a correlation of different frequencies...The space will be given by the scale. The music of the space will be done by the various chords. It's not enough to give the scale. You also have to give which chords are possible....The only thing that matters when you have these sequences are the ratios, the ear is only sensitive to the ratio, not to the additivity...multiplication by 2 of the frequency and transposition, normally the simplest way is multiplication by 3...2 to the power of 19 is almost 3 to the power of 12....You see what we are after....it should be a shape, it's spectrum looks like that...We can draw this spectrum...what do you get? It doesn't look at all like a parabola! It doesn't look at all like a parabola! It doesn't look at all like a straight line. It goes up exponentially fast...What is the dimension of this space?...It's much much smaller. It's zero...It's smaller than any positive.... Musical shape has geometric dimension zero... You think you are in bad shape because all the shapes we know ...but this is ignoring the noncommutative work. This is ignoring quantum groups. There is a beautiful answer to that, which is the quantum sphere... .There is a quantum sphere with a geometric dimension of zero...I have made a keyboard [from the quantum sphere]....This would be a musical instrument that would never get out of tune....It's purely spectral....The spectrum of the Dirac Operator...space is not simply a manifold but multiplied by a noncommutative finite space......It is precisely the irrationality of log(3)/ log(2) which is responsible for the noncommutative [complementary opposites as yin/yang] nature of the quotient corresponding to the three places {2, 3,∞}. The formula is in sub-space....Geometry would no longer be dependent on coordinates, it would be spectral...The thing which is very unpleasant in this formula is the square root...especially for space with a meter....So there is a solution to this problem of the square root, which was found by Paul Dirac....It's not really Paul Dirac, it is Hamilton who found it first...the quaternions is the Dirac Operator....Replace the geometric space, by the algebra and the line element...for physicists this thing has a meaning, a propagator for the Dirac Operator. So it's the inverse of the Dirac Operator.... You don't lose anything. You can recover the distance from two points, in a different manner....but by sending a wave from point A to point B with a constraint on the vibration of the wave, can not vibrate faster than 1; because what I ask is the commutator of the Dirac Operator is less than 1...It no longer requires that the space is connected, it works for discrete space. It no longer requires that the space is commutative, because it works for noncommutative space....the algebra of coordinates depends very little on the actual structure and the line element is very important. What's really important is there interaction [the noncommutative chord]. When you let them interact in the same space then everything happens....You should never think of this finite space as being a commutative space. You have matrices which are given by a noncommutative space...To have a geometry you need to have an inverse space and a Dirac Operator...The inverse space of the finite space is 5 dimensional....What emerges is finite space...it's related to mathematics and related to the fact that there is behind the scene, when I talk about the Dirac Operator, there is a square root, and this square root, when you take a square root there is an ambiguity. And the ambiguity that is there is coming from the spin structure.... We get this formula by counting the number of the variables of the line element that are bigger than the Planck Length. We just count and get an integer.... There is a fine structure in spacetime, exactly as there is a fine structure in spectrals [frequencies]....Geometry is born in quantum space; it is invariant because it is observer dependent....Our brain is an incredible ...perceives things in momentum space of the photons we receive and manufactures a mental picture. Which is geometric. But what I am telling you is that I think ...that the fundamental thing is spectral [frequency]....And somehow in order to think we have to do this enormous Fourier Transform...not for functions but a Fourier Transform on geometry. By talking about the "music of shapes" is really a fourier transform of shape and the fact that we have to do it in reverse. This is a function that the brain does amazingly well, because we think geometrically....The quantum observables do no commute; the phase space of a microscopic system is actually a noncommutative space and that is what is behind the scenes all the time. They way I understand it is that some physical laws are so robust, is that if I understand it correctly, there is a marvelous mathematical structure that is underneath the law, not a value of a number, but a mathematical structure....A fascinating aspect of music...is that it allows one to develop further one's perception of the passing of time. This needs to be understood much better. Why is time passing? Or better: Why do we have the impression that time is passes? Because we are immersed in the heat bath of the 3K radiation from the Big Bang?...time emerges from noncommutativity....What about the relation with music? One finds quickly that music is best based on the scale (spectrum) which consists of all positive integer powers qn for the real number q=2 to the 12th∼3 to the 19th. Due to the exponential growth of this spectrum, it cannot correspond to a familiar shape but to an object of dimension less than any strictly positive number. As explained in the talk, there is a beautiful space which has the correct spectrum: the quantum sphere of Poddles, Dabrowski, Sitarz, Brain, Landi et all. ... We experiment in the talk with this spectrum and show how well suited it is for playing music. The new geometry which encodes such new spaces, is then introduced in its spectral form, it is noncommutative geometry, which is then confronted with physics. Fields Medal math professor Alain Connes,
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