"So - when I called with my first question about the maximum building size allowed with no permit - they gave me the wrong information. They later corrected themselves after I had already started." New York StateHere is what he first posted. Then this:
'I called the code office two years ago and asked the max. size building allowed without a permit. I was told 150 square feet. I then sank some poles to build a small permit-exempt building as such. Then - after the poles were in - another code person told me they gave me the wrong info - and the max. is 120 square feet - not 150." New York StateWow - talk about a freak out scenario! After that his situation was just a total disaster. All he wanted to build was a nice little cabin in the forest in upstate New York. But you have to figure out the laws by yourself.
So I decided to figure out what the hell happened to this dude. I mean why this discrepancy between 120 and 150 feet? I didn't tackle the problem head on. Instead I read around it - and I read and I read and I read. I did a comparative analysis. FINALLY the truth snuck out.
So you'd think codes would be different - he's in NY state. I'm in Minnesota. Nope - it's fairly standard as the "international CC" is the basis (acronyms)...
OK.... This might seem boring and it is - so I'll just cut to the chase.
Essentially an "accessory structure" has to be 120 square feet or less to not require a building permit....But a TEMPORARY structure needs a permit if it is more than 150 square feet! Now that does not mean it has to be meet any special "codes" (besides just being structurally sound - like a Tent even!) - it just needs a PERMIT - like a conditional use permit (on the way to building a permanent residence or "primary structure").
See how crazy that just was? That poor person would have never guessed the secret. Why is that? - the wording hides the truth:
No permit required for accessory structure less than 150 square feetSo you would think that 150 square feet is the "cut off" - right? NOPE. That's why he AND the Code people got fooled!! Again the Secret being held back is that is for a TEMPORARY structure!!
California?
Such structures shall not have a floor area that exceeds 120 square feet and the height above grade shall not exceed 12 feet. No more than one structure may be allowed under this exemption unless separated from another permit exempt structure by more than 50 feet.OK so how does this relate to Camping - more so Primitive Camping (whatever that means now a days?).... by State law definition:
"Camp" means the temporary abode of a person fishing, hunting, trapping, vacationing, or touring, while on a trip or tour including resorts, tourist camps, and other establishments providing temporary lodging.
A Dwelling Site is used for a temporary or moving SHELTER like a tent.
A temporary shelter - i.e. a hunting shack or camping cabin or tent intended for short term seasonal occupancy - LESS than 150 square feet.
Moreover, any [hunting] stand with a roof or cover and any walls must be disassembled by Dec. 31 and remain roofless and wall-less through Sept. 1....allow temporary stands to be left in the woods overnight, although they must be removed by the end of the deer hunting season....Permanent "structures" are illegal in state forests, which, like St. Louis County, means no roofs or walls.
"Transient guest" for the purpose of this subsection shall mean an occupant who is primarily transient in nature, staying at one location for 30 days or less.
CABIN, SEASONAL OR RECREATIONAL. A residence occupied only on a part-time basis, not to exceed eight consecutive months [240 days], and not requiring public services such as a school bus.
short-term in Minnesota if ...isolated or occasional,....if any structure is used residentially on more than an occasional basis, [then it is considered seasonal recreational, not rural vacant].
It should be emphasized that parcels with permanent structuresthat are used for residential purposes indicate that there is an actual use of the property. This would preclude the property from being classified as rural vacant land. The property should then be classified according to its actual use.
County Zoning:
if used more than occasionally the structure is no longer short-term nor temporary, but rather seasonal.
The Minnesota Department of Natural Resources redefines portable shelters as ones that fold up, collapse or can be disassembled for transport
Dwelling Unit: Any structure or portion of structure or Shelter designed as a short term or long term living quarters...The key provision is that each dwelling unit must provide "complete, independent living facilities."
So we're really talking about size - a "bunkhouse" = hunting shack that sleeps more than one person and so requires a license (conditional use permit).Subd. 4. Camper cabins and bunkhouses.
Camper cabins and bunkhouses are exempt from floor space, air space, or bed spacing requirements applicable to lodging establishments adopted by the commissioner. For the purposes of this section:
(1) "bunkhouse" means a building, structure, or enclosure intended to sleep more than one person for up to three nights that does not include a kitchen or bathroom; and
(2) "camper cabin" means a permanent rustic enclosure with walls and a floor that does not include a kitchen or bath; is located in a state park administered by the commissioner of natural resources, at a resort as defined under section 157.15, subdivision 11, or at a recreational camping area as defined under section 327.14, subdivision 8; and is intended to be a place where sleeping accommodations are furnished to the public.
BUNKHOUSE. Residential accessory structure used for sleeping quarters with no sanitation, cooking facilities or water under pressure....A guest cottage or bunkhouse must not cover more than 700 square feet of land surface and must not exceed 15 feet in height
short-term seasonal access road ...
the Superior National Forest in St. Louis, Lake, and Cook counties
So that's the difference between a Dwelling UNIT and a Dwelling SITE. A Dwelling Unit is a "year-round dwelling" as permanent habitation, not temporary nor seasonal, recreational. A Dwelling Site is a permanent SHELTER that can be a structure 120 square feet or less but only used temporarily or a Dwelling Site can be a "moving" portable shelter like a tent or (in certain areas), a recreational vehicle.
Just because a structure is USED temporarily does not mean that the structure itself is temporary! Rather if it is 120 square feet or less then it is an accessory structure that is NOT a Dwelling Unit but rather a Dwelling Site that is used temporarily (therefore not requiring a permit). In other words, as stated below, it's a PERMANENT SHELTER (that again is used temporarily) - in contrast to a dwelling unit (see Bunkhouse below).
We call those sheds.
Homeless call them shelter.It if is bigger than 120 square feet then it DOES require a permit (even though it is still used temporarily and so it's a conditional use permit)....
Wow - did anyone just catch that subtle bait and switch? No one would think this is a big deal but you don't want me to go into the excruciating pain and torture that the above New York State fellow went through just wanting to build a simple "cabin" for incidental use!
As someone pointed out (to his horrifying realization):
Yep - who would have guessed - but considering how Hunting Cabins have become so Glamped Up these days - you can see how the local authorities are also freaked out about this stuff.
You could request a modification under the International Codes, based on its seasonal use... (I'd be hard pressed to grant one, probably)..
there were some code proposals in the last development cycle deleting some of the requirements for hunting cabins, etc... but those proposals were defeated...
Most codes do not address if the building will be occupied one day a year or 365, they still have to meet the same requirements.
So once I realized the "magic" of 120 square feet - I dug a little deeper. It's pretty fascinating really.
So the international code WAS changed to remove the 120 square feet minimum for a "room" - now a Tiny House can be as small as only 70 square feet! Considering Hunting Shacks are required permits after 68 square feet in size - in Minnesota - this starts to make sense.... But this still does not qualify as "primitive" camping - does it?
NICOLLET COUNTY ZONING ORDINANCE
Hunting Shack – A limited use structure, the purpose of which is for the enjoyment of the natural ... which is greater than sixty-four square feet in size.
How about Animal shelters?
kennel structures more than 120 feet require a permit.yep. So we're now talking about the Animal-Human divide! You don't believe me?
Accessory buildings 120 square feet or less are allowed - with no permit required. Temporary structures are allowed but for larger than 160 square feet then a permit is required.
Again that's the basic secret equation.
When are building permits required? - Building permits are required for any work ... roofing), etc., and new buildings over 120 square feet in area.So now keep in mind the "bait and switch" - NO permit for a TEMPORARY structure less than 150 square feet. No Permit for an accessory structure equal to or less than 120 square feet.
So what's the difference between an Animal Shelter and a Primitive camp site? Not much really.
Any animal shelter that is 120-square-feet or larger would fall under the building category of an accessory structure and would require a building permit.It's starting to get fascinating.... So how about a HOMELESS SHELTER? (Not an animal shelter)
That's right - a MAXIMUM of 400 square feet! Now how's that compare back with the Land of the Free building codes?Their occupancy is limited to ... 1 person per 200 square feet of ...Chapter 18.66 EMERGENCY SHELTERS - Code Publishing Company
https://www.codepublishing.com/CA/Norco/html/Norco18/ Norco1866.html
Any emergency shelter with a capacity . ... clients including 10 square feet per bed, minimum 100 square feet, to ensure that .... (3) Units shall have a minimum size of 150 square feet and a maximum of 400....
400 square feet is minimum recreational seasonal Dwelling Unit (Camp Cabin, Hunting Shack Cabin, etc.)
exceeding 400 square feet must comply with HUD's.
"I got the stop work order claiming I have too much "living space" exceeding the magic 400 square foot limit. I called and the code person told me that "living space" is calculated from the exterior. So - the one lower floor is determined to be 434 square feet if measured from the exterior. But . . . measuring the actual living space from the finished interior walls it is 381 square feet. My New York State code book defines "living space" as:
Space within a dwelling unit utilized for living, sleeping, eating, cooking, bathing, washing and sanitation purposes. one living area minimum floor space 120 sq. ft.; bdrm min. 70 sq ft.; bathroom w/full bath 5X8 ft. (40sq ft.); Ceiling heights must be at least 7 feet. The houses must have cooking and refrigeration equipment and a sink, all with frontal working clearance of 30 inches.
• There must be a hot and cold water supply and an approved method of sewage disposal.
I do none of those things "inside" the exterior walls and it seems to me - the word "within" means "within the walls." So - now what? I asked the code guy if there is any way I can render the building a little smaller to suit his defintion and he said NO - unless I tear it down and rebuild. I asked him if there is any other class of building and code other than one/two family residential full time use - e.g. a hunting cabin and again he said NO. This all sounds crazy. I was also told - that even though we won''t have any grid-power - fire/smoke alarms must be hard-wired. Yet - my code book states clearly it is NOT necessary if commercial electricity is not hooked up." New York State (see end of blog post for further details)
Tents used for recreation camping or tents less than 400 square feet are exempt from needing building code approval. Tents are portable shelters not structures (unless kept standing longer than 180 days).
each Commercial RV/Campsite MUST have a 400 square feet impervious ground coverageVoila! So.... keep in mind a "Dwelling Unit" is the minimum for a Permanent Residency status - a legal status so you can get a driver's license based on international construction code (of modern Westernized civilization!!). So now we see the magic of 400 square feet as a seasonal residency status requiring a building permit.
So we are starting to Etch Out a Gray area - aren't we! Let's dig a bit deeper. How about Farm Workers? The lowest paid workers on the planet? Basically slave-animals right? So what's their building code status?
a building used or intended to be used for short term seasonal occupancy for farm labourersWhat are we really talking about here?
camper or unit designed as a vacation unit for short-term seasonal occupancy,So it's a seasonal camper or Dwelling Unit situation - YET NO conditional use permit is required for a recreational camper! But only if just used as a short-term seasonal occupancy. For a permanent shelter that is used temporarily as an accessory dwelling structure - that is different. A permit is required if bigger than 120 square feet.
So we just BUMPED ourselves out of the Primitive Camping level. Actually my local ordinance enables a Camper or Recreational Vehicle to be stored onsite with NO PERMIT required - but again it can only be USED as a temporarily even though it is a permanent shelter!! Otherwise a conditional permit would be needed. See the Bait and Switch again being activated.
Campers, Recreational Camping Vehicles, and Temporary Dwellings
A Seasonal Dwelling: A FREESTANDING residence designed for or occupied by one family only and used for recreational enjoyment on a temporary basis.So a "structure" requiring a building permit implies it has a foundation (you get to choose from various options - a slab foundation or Pier foundation, etc.)
Now let's have some fun:
For primitive dwelling ... in low dwelling density area...the material must be buried or covered with soil.Yeah we know what's that talking about - !!
No Permit Required: Recreational Vehicles and OTHER camping is allowed on parcels WITHOUT a permit provided....county sewage treatment standards shall be followed.So here we get into the Primitive Camping secret:
The Primitive Camping Void!
Residential Use: A category of use that includes but is not limited to: hunting shacks, residential dwellings (less than five), seasonal residences, and accessory dwellings and structures.Notice it does not say Dwelling UNIT - since a "dwelling site" is not the same as a Dwelling Unit.
an Accessory Structure used as a Dwelling Unit (a guest house).This is the Secret to the primitive camping void: A tent only becomes a structure if it remains standing more than 180 days.
Accessory Dwelling: A structure used as a Dwelling Unit..
Resorts must not allow residential use of a dwelling unit or site, except dwellings used as residences for the service providers.
Forest and Agricultural Management Zoning - permits (no permit required but with performance standards) for Hunting Shack and "other primitive dwellings."A low level of development is important since THE USES ENCOURAGED ARE LESS COMPATIBLE IN AN URBAN SETTING.
Residential use includes seasonal, accessory structures or dwellings like hunting shack.A Dwelling Site is used for a temporary or moving SHELTER like a tent or temporary shelter as camping site.
one accessory dwelling allowed per each one acre lot.Rural Vacant tax code is 300 square feet or less of building structure in total (storage or dwelling).
So here we have the bait and switch - just because something is a SHELTER does not mean it is a temporary structure! It can be a permanent shelter that is USED temporarily. The structure can be an accessory dwelling that is equal to or less than 120 square feet!!
Again notice the subtle difference?
Quite amazing isn't it!!?
a campSITE but NOT, I repeat, NOT a "campground" (open-air recreational, and TWO or more USED campsites
Any site, lot, field, or tract of land where two or more occupied manufactured homes are located, either free of charge or for compensation. This includes any building, structure, tent, vehicle, or enclosure used, or intended to be used, for the manufactured home park. This does not include facilities open three or fewer seasons each year.
"Recreational camping area" means any area, whether privately or publicly owned, used on a daily, nightly, weekly, or longer basis for the accommodation of five or more tents or recreational camping vehicles free of charge or for compensation
Recreational Vehicles shall be considered Mobile Homes if occupied more than 7 months a year.Mobile Home: Any Site or tract of land includes any structure or tentMeaning 17 days on the land per month and 13 days OFF the land per month for the whole YEAR. 17 days x 12 months (204) is less than 7 months x 30 days (210). https://offgridworld.com/off-grid-living-is-illegal-sort-of/
MPCA noted that
absence of reference to primitive dwellings was a
"void in the rule."
"Toilet waste treatment devices. The owner shall operate Toilet waste treatment device in accordance with the manufacturer's requirements. For primitive dwellings...in low density areas, septage disposal shall not be to surface waters, drainageways, or in a manner or volume harmful to the environment or public health or that creates a nuisance if allowed under local ordinance."
"The approach of the rule change is to treat primitive dwellings with greywater systems less restrictively..."
Sanitary stations must be adequately screened and located at least 50 feet from any campsite.
There are 5 long term sites at McDougal [national forest], allowing people to camp for longer than the 14 day maximum allowed on other sites....There are 4 long term campsites at Little Isabella [national forest] which provide for camping beyond
In most places throughout the USA, it is illegal to camp on your own land for more than 2 weeks.So basically just as the US Forest Service encourages Primitive Camping with a 14 day limit (plus the weekend for travel, so 17 days x 12 months = 204 days (less than 7 months seasonal or 210 days) - so too do you have a 14 day limit for primitive or "incidental" or "occasional" camping - as a Primitive Dwelling Site or Campsite. That's the "tax code" while the Forest Agriculture Management zoned use allows seasonal camping (it would just mean that the tax code needs to be changed).
the value of unimproved property, over 10 acres in size that is currently classified as Seasonal Residential Recreational is considered by assessors to be minimal...
Owners of real and personal property devoted to temporary and seasonal residential occupancy for recreation purposes in which all or a portion of the property was devoted to commercial purposes for not more than 250 days in the year preceding the year....rural vacant land consists of parcels of property, or portions thereof, that are unplatted real estate, rural in character and not used for agricultural purposes, including land used for growing trees for timber, lumber, and wood and wood products, that is not improved with a structure. The presence of a minor, ancillary nonresidential structure as defined by the commissioner of revenue does not disqualify the property from classification under this paragraph....The annual limit is then 240 days as a seasonal limit - so the weekends are kind of an overlap for transportation time I guess. A tent set up over 6 months though becomes a temporary structure (instead of a SHELTER) - but again if it is not over 150 square feet than no permit is required - as long as it is taken down, so it's not a structure.
"Primitive dwelling...a dwelling where water is carried by hand.......prohibits discharge to poorly drained soils....allow LGUs [local gov units] to work out solutions over a variety of situations."
Residential Use Properties - Minnesota Department of Revenue
Feb 12, 2007 - including seasonal residential recreational and residential homestead and ..... temporary or seasonal occupancy in order to gain access to local recreational or cultural ..... Such residential purposes included camping in a tent, occupying .... residence to attend sporting or cultural events or to access nearby ...
yes but unlike a monarchy-derived parliamentary republic, the US republic was chartered by self-evident sovereigns. So in a parliamentary republic the elected officials are the sovereigns - not the "subjects." BIG difference. I didn't learn this until recently. A constitutional republic is a chartered corporate entity, chartered through the constitutional conferences of the self-evidence sovereigns. For my recent research into the secret of how to live YEAR ROUND legally without any government "permit" or "license" - see my new blog post https://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2019/06/void-in-rule-of-primitive-dwelling-site.html The secret is that a tent is not a structure - unless it is kept standing more than 180 days. So you just need to do some camping on free national land also - to spread out the camping time. So it is seasonal camping if less than 7 months a year - otherwise even a tent is considered a dwelling unit that has to be permitted and licensed, etc. as a "mobile home." That's really the ONLY loop hole to maintain legal sovereignty.
Let's go back to our fellow in New York:
The structures that the APA regulations classify as a ?hunting and fishing cabin? do not have connections to public utilities (i.e., no commercial electric power nor telephone service), do not have pressurized water systems for potable water, and do not have household septic systems. They may have chemical toilets or privies and have gray water disposal systems.So that's a seasonal building and NOT a permanent residence.
It is the opinion of the Division of Code Enforcement and Administration that a building meeting the APA definition of hunting and fishing cabin is classified most appropriately as Group U occupancy by the BCNYS section 312.1. The BCNYS provides that buildings classified as Group U occupancy shall comply with provisions relating to the adequacy of the structural system. Such buildings may be constructed on properly designed foundations of concrete blocks or on piers. BCNYS section 1103.2.5 exempts U occupancy buildings from its provisions for accessibility by physically disabled persons. There are no fire protection equipment requirements; however, section 508.1 exception 3 of the FCNYS provides that buildings classified as Group U occupancy be at least 50 feet from the property lines. Such buildings are classified as ?low energy use? buildings by section 101.4.11 of the ECNYS and are therefore exempt from the requirements of that code.
The 2001 definition states that certain residential type features may "partially" exist, whereas it is further defined in the 2003 definition of "Cabin" that only one of a list of features needs to be missing to qualify - i.e. & e.g. commercial electric hookup, automatic heating system, pressurized water supply, hot water heater, or sanitation system. Such a cabin is exempt from much of code - but not exempt from setback requirements or structural aspects.And so now for a permanent building permit?
The description for cabins and type U occupancy also permits pier, pole, or wood-frame foundations.
In reality, the building department should have never issued the permit without engineered drawings, even if it was only to be used for storage. If the building were conventional construction, the engineered plan may not have been necessary. I believe the call for engineered drawings was/is legitimate. Many jursidictions require house plans to be sealed by an architect. This is a separate requirement from the engineering.
In regard to other factors - like no electricity, heat, etc. - they are factors usually taken into account - legally - to determine when a building falls into a limited use classification - e.g. a hunting or fishing cabin.
In this county, a dwelling is a dwelling is a dwelling. You must have a domestic water supply, you must have a sewage disposal system, egress, smoke detectors, fire blocking, engineers foundation design, etc, etc, etc.http://www.thecitypages.com/news-opinion/tiny-but-not-easy/
Minimum house size is not by accident, says Marathon County Planning and Zoning's Dean Johnson. Local governments began regulating minimum building sizes in the 1960s to control the proliferation of mobile trailer homes. Otherwise, people would buy cheap mobile homes and park them on a subdivision lot, Johnson says. So planners calculated the average size of a mobile home and added enough square footage to make sure these residences were prohibited in most all neighborhoods.
The smallest house allowed in Wausau, for example, is 800 square feet, plus 200 more for a garage, says William Hebert, the city’s chief inspector and zoning administrator. City zoning requires even larger footprints in many areas. In some parts of the U.S., homeowners with large lots are constructing backyard tiny homes as a “granny house” for guests, relatives or renters. Even this use for a tiny house is prohibited in Wausau and most (if not all) areas in Marathon County.
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